Forum Topic

Waterman’s Art Centre

Should it remain on its current site or move to the proposed new location on Half Acre – your thoughts please?

Martin Case ● 3259d27 Comments

See my post of today on the other Waterman's thread here.

Jennifer Selig ● 3259d

Thanks Jennifer just trying to guage the wider communities thoughts on this as to my knowledge we haven't been consulted on this.

Martin Case ● 3259d

Mad to move it and the rationale is quite illogical.Only vested interests and developers are railroading this as it means only one thing £££££££££sWith a park to be carved up for a marina, a now a cycle motorway and a huge block removing the river view and deviating the only drift of Fresh air, one can not understand why there is not a proper consultation to all Brentford residents on this.And a same size or smaller arts centre with no car park and not so easy to access, right in the middle of a residential block?Insane or a ploy.

Raymond Havelock ● 3258d

Ignoring for a moment the debate on what might be built on the Waterman’s current site if it were to move I suspect that the vast majority of people in Brentford couldn’t really care where it is located in Brentford because they never have and never will set foot in the place.I know very few people who have been and those that have only go to the cinema because it is cheaper than going to Richmond. And that I think it is the problem with the vast majority of local authority funded arts venues - they either put on subsidised mainstream arts attended largely by people who can afford to pay the full price somewhere else or they put on ‘niche arts projects’ which the vast majority of people have no interest in attending.

James Homer ● 3258d

We used to go to it a lot.  A big part of the attraction was its position. We could include walking along the river and travelling on the bus and occasionally by car.If it had had better views from inside of the river instead of high level windows, better disabled facilities (I remember a ramp in the bar area being put in instead of steps quite early on and some sort of lift outside on the riverside which quite honestly through better design should never have been needed in the first place.)  A fabulous site but a seriously failing design.  So unbelievable you wonder whether it wasn't actually designed to make life difficult for its success.

Philippa Bond ● 3258d

I want it kept where it is with plenty of parking and excellent bus access from both east/west and north/south.

Susan Kelly ● 3258d

Saying that you don't know anyone who goes there is irrelevant to those of us from Brentford and local area who do use it is meaningless. Most times I go it is quite well frequented by customers. I would prefer it stay where it is because I am skeptical that the proposed new site will prove to be a crock and some excuse based on funding etc.will be made to not build it.

Keith Iddon ● 3258d

But it may be relevant to the significant larger number of Brentford residents and other local people that don’t use it. Even Waterman’s itself asserts that its current infrastructure / offering / patronage does not make it sustainable

James Homer ● 3258d

I think there is an opportunity to chat about the proposed developments etc this coming Saturday at Watermans ie 14th October.  I was very pro the new site and thought the funding was in place, and that it was an exciting and interesting project.  I am really not so sure now - there seems to be a degree of secrecty and duplicity about proposals etc.  I understand that Kew and World Heritage are now having a say.  This is excellent news, but surely they should have been notified about all the proposals a long time ago.  This whole project is looking very weird right now.

Emma Renton ● 3257d

Would the community be interested in a presentation from Watermans at a public meet whereby they could scope out their plan for the new Watermans followed by a Q & A session?

Martin Case ● 3256d

I would be extremely interested and ASAP if possible.  Thanks

Emma Renton ● 3256d

Wasn't there more parking before but it was leased to Max Factor or another company?  I used to go in the daytime a lot.  The wonderful Tamar Swade is still creating Pandemonium with help..

Philippa Bond ● 3256d

The Waterman's question is really three separate subjects.One is the proposed development on the old Police Station site in Half Acre with an incorporated new Waterman's Arts Centre in the basement.  How much space is the Council actually allocating to this proposed new Art's Centre?Two is raising an additional £6 million from private donors  for the 'contents' to fill the 'shell' of any new Waterman's  - all the technical stuff, the decor, etc etc. required for a new Wmans Arts Centre as envisioned by the current management  The council are not offering any additional sums for this part, it has to come from private donors;Three is the development of the Waterman's riverside site (The Albany Riverside) including the gardens, the soon to be empty cinema buildings, the adjacent Max Factor buildings.Is there any chance of the hi-rise plans being adjusted to low level, open plan use of the space.  Historic England and Kew Gardens have intervened in the hopes of saving the centuaries' old views across the river for future generations of visitor to Kew itself and to the residents and visitors to Brentford to continue to enjoy Is that how the Waterman's discussions are going to be presented?

Jennifer Selig ● 3256d

Apparently Watermans are reviewing their plans and will be in discussion with Hounslow. Following those we will ask for a presentation.

Martin Case ● 3256d

There is also the Cycling Superhighway planned to go through Watermans Park.

Philippa Bond ● 3256d

'Wasn't there more parking before but it was leased to Max Factor or another company?'It's the other way round, Philippa: part of the car park used to be reserved for MF, which is long gone; now we get to use all of it.I'm baffled by claims that people don't use Waterman's, apparently based on the fact that the writer doesn't go there personally. It's a rare week that doesn't involve at least one visit from me and there are always plenty of people there, even in the afternoon. Monday screenings in the cinema, at a reduced price, are often sold out. The restaurant can get very busy evenings and weekends.

Susan Kelly ● 3255d

I was there yesterday (Saturday) afternoon and it was really really busy, and not just people visiting the cinema, or the SuperCycle Highway presentation - but folks just coming in to sit around and read the papers, have a cup and a slice, or some lunch at the Indian restaurant.  Whenever I visit its nearly always busy.  Hurrah

Emma Renton ● 3255d

There are some misconceptions here.The space currently allocated is a little more than the space in the current arts centre. The space would be fitted out in accordance with the Watermans' requirement at the developers' expense.The £6M ambition is to expand the size of the proposed arts centre (basically by making a deeper basement) to provide a larger auditorium. This would enable the centre to provide a capability that is seen as lacking in West London (EG a full-function dance venue) and it is why there is seen to be a reasonable prospect of funding from alternative arts funding bodies - not 'private donors' though no doubt a modern Andrew Carnegie would be welcome.I can understand Kew objecting to the proposal - they have objected to most if not all developments above 3 or 4 storeys in Brentford and I guess the proposed buildings would exceed the height of the trees which shield the existing buildings from Kew. As to Brentford residents and visitors, the existing Watermans provides a fully efficient barrier between the High St and the river, which cannot be seen at all between Smith Hill in the West and approx Pottery Road in the East.Of course, there's a debate to be had about the height, design and footprint of the proposed development (I won't say more because as a planning committee member I have to reserve judgment) but it will notably improve access to the river on the Brentford side both by providing a proper riverside path and by having breaks between the buildings which will provide some kind of vista from the High Street

Guy Lambert ● 3255d

"but it will notably improve access to the river on the Brentford side both by providing a proper riverside path and by having breaks between the buildings which will provide some kind of vista from the High Street"Sorry Guy do you consider the narrow metal bridge type passage along the newly built blocks to the East of Goat Warf a "proper riverside path"? Is that what is proposed for the new development too?

Alex Shpinkov ● 3255d

Guy "to provide a capability that is seen as lacking in West London (EG a full-function dance venue) ........"- what's the matter with the existing Paul Robeson Theatre, that's called an Art Centre and is centrally positioned in the Borough?  I thought the council wanted a venue more accessible to and for the arts education of the "Hounslowsians" and was not concerned about the existing bulk of the patrons who come from Ealing, Chiswick, Kew, Richmond and Kingston.Regarding the existing trees screening developments below 3-4 stories - will those existing trees even survive once the bulldozers move in?  It's not Kew on its own objecting to the destruction of these centuries-old views.  Historic England has submitted their highly respected views on this matter.Regarding seeing the river from Brentford High Street - you quote a very narrow section immediately behind Watermans building - I am concerned about the long river views over the Gardens from the Musical Museum all along to the start of Watermans itself- they are destined to be blighted.  From inside the Waterman's building, the very large bar/cafe/restaurant and sitting area runs along the river - the views could be greatly enhanced by redesigning and replacing the awful windows and terraces and providing a "proper riverside path".

Jennifer Selig ● 3254d

I think people had better get their heads around whether they want a Waterman's cinema and restaurant/bar/cafe with possibly a small theatre entertainment go-to-venue OR whether they want another Art's Centre in the Borough - remember Hounslow doesn't support the one it already has at the Paul Robeson Theatre in the middle of Hounslow!  For sure the first option is a no-no in any Half Acre concrete bunker.  As for an Art's Centre - the expense looks fearsome and will never make a profit - up-date the existing Art's Centre in Hounslow and spend the big money on improving the Waterman's Riverside venue AND make a profit as well as adding to everyone's enjoyment.

Jennifer Selig ● 3247d

It does not say much for the current regime at Watermans that they cannot make a profit or the buzz that resonated around West London about the place.The location could not be better for a highly successful Arts and recreational hub, a venue with a view by day and devoid of neighbours, a place that can be as active & noisy as it likes at night.True the building is not perfect and that is largely due to the closed ears of many who supported it's inception but were not listened to about it's design shortcomings by Hounslow Borough. - Nothing Changes.There is no wisdom in moving it. No business sense whatsoever and little to be excited about from a pure arts aspect.Everything seems dependent on handouts, grants , funding and, no doubt, bail outs.Spend £6m on the site as it is and it could be fabulous.It just needs creativity and resourcefulness. Something that this Arts management  and it's associates in development seem to be rather ironically, devoid of.It will simply fade away into the sunset - except it won't be visible from the Half Acre.

Raymond Havelock ● 3247d

‘Apparently Watermans are reviewing their plans and will be in discussion with Hounslow. Following those we will ask for a presentation’Some suggestions:• Talk to the management at the Barbican, Orange Tree Theatre and Serpentine Gallery to understand how to run an exciting and profitable arts centre • Talk to the V&A about revolving satellite displays of some of their massive stock of art and fashion• You’ve got a 250-seat theatre, so talk to the West End theatres about running some of their shows • Ask Gordon Ramsay, Jamie Oliver, Rick Stein, Michael Roux, Marco Pierre White, if they fancy opening a restaurant above a thriving arts and theatre centre in a beautiful riverside location opposite Kew Gardens. Also ask if they’d put one in a basement under some shops and a block of flats. Your current location is absolute gold dust.• Ask LBH’s Property Development department if having such a restaurant would help the regeneration of Brentford• Remodel the road facia and get rid of the ‘I am not a car park’ sign• Go and have lunch at the Kensington Roof Gardens and then do something about the weeds on the roofWhat's the outcome of the the land Watermans is on having been 'gifted to the people of Brentford' and therefore not something LBH can legally sell or swap? 

Lorne Gifford ● 3246d

It shouldn't have to move simply because developers want to use the riverside site to build homes for people with lots of money; why should this valued community resource not occupy this prime location!

Paul Berrey ● 3246d

Because this prime location is worth millions to Hounslow Council if sold to developers for expensive flats - to hell with what the locals want.

Jennifer Selig ● 3246d

Water frontage = mad money as they say. I used to live in Staines. A typical flat in the town and a similar one riverside no relation in price.

Nicholas Beard ● 3246d

But this is a public site for the benefit and recreation of the People of Brentford as a whole. Long won after nearly 30 years from North Thames Gas.It is not a cash cow for the benefit of Hounslow Borough politicians and officers playing at being property magnates.At the very least, residents of the district ought to be allowed to vote on what LBH does with this town, and similarly with all the other districts in this borough.Ealing have just had one for central Ealing. As that too is being ruined systematically by nasty architecture and overbearing developments it's a bit late coming.It was also a little flawed as a Yes / No Vote did not offer a choice of Yes Option or any No options at all.So Hounslow could learn from that but the People living here ought to decide not politicians and party policies or policies of officers who seem to believe they are above being answerable to their paymasters.Too few participate in various consultations and initiatives, probably because it ia A/  Time Consuming and B/ Brain Numbing.That does not mean people are indifferent or ignorant.But better involvement in needed because clearly, politicians have too much input of their own or party opinions and not of those of their wider electorate.Hard for them to gauge sometimes so it would be better to do what Ealing have just done - only with a choice of realistic options.

Raymond Havelock ● 3245d